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Barbara Mason Interview 3/5

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Maria "Funkyflyy" Granditsky: So Barbara, why didn't you stay at Buddah? You left the label some time after the "Love's The Thing" album. Around 1975, right?

Barbara Mason: -Yes, I did. What happened was, my manager Jimmy Bishop decided to leave Buddah and go to work for Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff's Philadelphia International Records. I went with him. He brought me to the label and I had been with him most of my career. As I said before, I had left Weldon McDougal, the gentleman that discovered me, and I was solely Jimmy Bishop's artist. By 1975, Neil Bogart had already left Buddah to form Casablanca and someone else, the accountant for Buddah, Art Kass, became the CEO. He was a great executive, but he was not as great as Neil Bogart. Art was good, but he did not have the vision that Neil had. Neil felt for the artist. He cared about us, he cared about how he presented his label to the world. Buddah under Neil Bogart was a great label. Like I told you, I automatically went on Buddah via National General and at that time Buddah had so many custom labels under their belt. One of them was Sussex which was owned by Clarence Avant. Clarence had Bill Withers and a guitarist named Dennis Coffey on his label. Again, that was all part of Neil's great vision. Buddah also distributed many labels. We had Gospel under us; "Oh Happy Day" by the Edwin Hawkins Singers was on Buddah and then we had Holland-Dozier-Holland's labels; Hot Wax and Invictus, where they had Chairman Of The Board, Freda Payne, the Honey Cone... We had the Isley Brothers, with their label T-Neck, we had Curtis's label Curtom... They were all distributed by Buddah. When you look at the Buddah label, it was just as great as any major label, like Columbia or Warner Brothers.. Neil was a genius. And he was so young! I believe he was only thirty-five when he died, so he had to have been in his late twenties when I arrived at Buddah. I can never say enough about the greatness of Neil Bogart and his vision for the artists.. There were two things that made me leave Buddah. Number one: Neil had gone. Number two: Jimmy Bishop was leaving and I thought I needed to be wherever Jimmy was because he knew me, he knew my style and he knew how to produce me. The last album I did on Buddah was "Love's The Thing" and it was a great idea of Jimmy's. I wrote a lot of the songs on that LP. It was a good album but in terms if sales, it wasn't as big as "Give Me Your Love". And I thought it was a good time to leave, because to me  Buddah wasn't as hot as it had been before. Of course they had hits after I had gone, they had big hits on Michael Henderson, a bass player who had been discovered by Norman Connors. Michael played on "Love's The Thing" and he was a great musician. I think while Art Kass was the CEO, Buddah had Melba Moore, but there weren't that many artists left on Buddah at the time when I had "Love's The Thing" out. Once Mr. Bishop left, I felt that I should go where he was going. But now I realize that should have stayed at Buddah because Jimmy and I were about to break up at that point. It wasn't working out very well between us. He seemed to put a lot of his concentration into working for Mr. Gamble and that kind of left me to myself, so to speak. We weren't doing any recording and that was the reason why I left Mr. Bishop and went to Curtom in 1976.

Before you left Buddah and signed with Curtom, you did the funky soundtrack to the blaxploitation movie "Sheba Baby" starring the inimitable Pam Grier and you also had a hit with vocal group the Futures called "We Got Each Other" in 1975. I have one LP by The Futures on Buddah called "Castles In The Sky" and I noticed that you wrote "Sixty Days In The House Of Love Correction", which is a very funky track that closes side B.

-You've heard it? Oh, Lord! I'm glad you brought that up! No one's heard that one! Aww...They did not promote the album. No one ever knew of the song! It's amazing how you brought that up! Yes, I wrote that for them. They were a local group out of Philadelphia and Jimmy Bishop was managing them. He asked me if I could come up with a song and I did it in about fifteen minutes. It was like that. If Jimmy ever needed anything I was like a writing machine. "We Got Each Other" was a great, great session. That song was only out on a 45. I toured with the Futures and I had a great time with those guys. I still stay in touch with them. I thought that LP was great, it just didn't get the recognition and the promotion that it deserved. They were great guys to work with.

Who else did you write for?

-Jimmy had a group by the name of the Ambassadors. They were on Arctic and I wrote a song for them called "I Ain't Got The Love Of Any One Girl On My Mind". A rap artist by the name of C.L. Smooth sampled that record. They gave me the credits and I got paid. That was the first time a rap artist took one of my songs.

Did you and Jimmy Bishop have a personal, as well as professional relationship?

-Yes. And what I learned from that is that business and pleasure does not mix well. In my earlier years, with Mr. Bishop and Mr. McDougal, and there were two other gentlemen by the names of John Styles and Luther Randolph, the four of them managed my career. I was quite young, I was just a teenager, and there was no personal involvement. It seemed that things were good. We were putting out a lot of great music, so getting involved with Jimmy Bishop was about more than just the business, it was personal. I was a very young woman, I would say I was about 20 or 21 years of age. I had just lost my mother and frankly speaking, Maria, I was feeling kind of lost and so I pretty much looked to Jimmy for everything. It wasn't that I didn't have a family. My father was still living and he is today, but in terms of my career, I looked to Jimmy. On one hand it was a good thing, but on the other it wasn't. We both realized it as it went along, but we realized it too late. I stayed with Jimmy for, I would say, give or take, seven years. We put out good product together, but things were getting a little rocky and I asked him for my release from the recording contract and from the managerial end, and he let me go. I also released myself from the personal end. That was in 1975 and I have not spoken to him, nor seen him, in well over twenty years. Still, I look back on that time as a great time, because life goes on and we all go through different things in life. When you asked me earlier about if I was married, this whole thing is part of the reason why I probably never will marry. When someone has control over not only your career, but your personal life, it's like they control your whole life.. They push all the buttons for you, they say yes and they say no. And when things don't go right on one end, it affects the other end. So, the personal end was affecting my career and we weren't making much progress. In 1975, while I still was with Buddah, I went on tour with the Futures. The tour was successful in certain aspects and in some it wasn't. Like for instance I'd go to a city and the town would not even know that I was coming. There was no promotion! Now again, we had Art Kass as CEO of Buddah. Had that been Neil Bogart, everyone would have known that I was coming to town. So, at the promotional and marketing end of Buddah, things were falling apart. I knew it and I said "I'm gonna have to get out of this before I come apart, mentally". I left to save myself, so that I could continue recording. Had I not, you would not have had "Another Man", "I'm Your Woman She Is Your Wife".. Now it's 1998 and I'm not with anyone and it's a good feeling to be free! I want to be with a company, I want to record, but unless it's with someone that gives me the freedom to be myself, to record the songs I wanna sing from my heart, then I probably won't record any more. To this day, I haven't found anyone that has given me that freedom.

Do you want total artistic freedom?

-Yes. But you know, Maria, I want to do it my way, but I'm not opposed to listening to suggestions. I've never been that way. If I had not listened to directions, I would not have gone as far as I did because I had no conception of the record industry or of showbusiness. I didn't come from a showbusiness family. The gentlemen that certainly guided my career, they did the best that they could for me, with the knowledge that they had. When I first signed with them, Jimmy Bishop and Weldon McDougal were only twenty-seven years old. I mean, these were young men and they didn't know a whole lot either. I didn't know anything, so I was under their guidance. But they never stopped me from writing, they always let me write the songs that I best could deliver, that they best could produce and so, we had a very, very good relationship. My mistake, again, was becoming personally involved. I would suggest to any artist, never make it personal because if you do, it's gonna come apart. I have not seen any combined personal and business relationships work. Marriages break up because the manager has such great control over the artist. He's telling you that you can or can't sing here or there, you can't do this and that. The artist becomes frustrated, particularly if you're a female. Jimmy and I did a lot of great things together and I have no animosity against anyone. I feel that everybody did what they thought was best for me. Some things worked out, some things didn't.

You then went to Curtis Mayfield, signed with his Curtom Records and in 1977 released "Locked In This Position" which was an album of duets with Bunny Sigler..

-Yes. I always like to remain with familiar people that know me, know something about my style and about me as a person and I knew Curtis from working with him in previous years. I'm a very big fan of Curtis's. I traveled with him when he was with Jerry Butler and the Impressions and I also went back with him on tour when he became Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions. And Curtis had written my first hit for Buddah "Give Me Your Love". So I've always had this contact with Curtis and that's why I asked him if he would sign me. That was in 1976. When I came to Curtom, Curtis had his label distributed, I think by that time it was distributed by Warner Brothers, Warner-Tamerlane. He had left the Buddah distribution ship and I thought that I'd probably do good with Curtis. But that didn't work out. So there I was, wandering around, not knowing what I was going to do. I didn't know what to do, so I asked Curtis if he would release me, so that I could go on an find another label where I could keep on recording and he was so gracious and nice. He said "I would never tie you up. If you don't feel comfortable with us, then you can definitely have your release", and he let me go. He is just such a great, great person, along with being one of the greatest writers of our time and I deeply respect him.

That album is probably my least favorite of yours..

-I know, I know. I didn't get too many good reviews on that one. It wasn't because Curtis wasn't trying or anything like that.  I had hired Bunny Sigler to produce me but we just couldn't seem to click in terms of the production. Bunny did the best he could but he really didn't know my style and Curtis left everything up to Bunny Sigler. So by the time we got the product back, the public really didn't like what I had done. But I would like to add that as a record executive, Curtis Mayfield treated me really great. After I left there, I went with Prelude and I had a kind of mediocre R&B hit there called "I'm Your Woman, She Is Your Wife" in 1978.

By studying your career, one can conclude that you've had your more than your share of bad deals and record labels going defunct. I admire your strength and how you're able to look at the positive side of it. Now since we're on the subject of Prelude.. Shortly before she passed, a then colleague of mine interviewed Disco Diva Sharon Redd, who was signed to Prelude too. When asked about Prelude, Sharon laughed and said "They were a bunch of crooks" (laughs).

-(Laughs). I never got a chance to meet her, she came after I had left. I was one of the first artists on Prelude and one of the first to have a hit record there with "I'm Your Woman, She Is Your Wife". Then myself and Weldon McDougal produced an album and after I left, that's when they began to get into Disco. I don't remember receiving any particular money from them and "I'm Your Woman, She Is Your Wife" did sell records. I did receive money from Weldon McDougal, who produced it, though. The statement she made is probably right. It's that kind of thing that make some us artists feel "is it worth it?" That's why a lot of artists start up their own, independent labels because they feel that they can't trust anyone.

Would you be able to describe a probable scenario of how a record label can screw an artist?

-Sure. You go in, you have product and they make you a deal. After you've signed the deal, they bring your record out and they distribute it, let's say on a world-wide basis. Then all of a sudden, you look for your money and it's not there. They tell you that they have already given you advances but the advance that they have given you is small, compared to what has been made on the record, and you're entitled to that money, as well. It can also be, like in my instance with "I'm Your Woman, She Is Your Wife", that they try to take your songs. Prelude tried to say that they wrote "I'm Your Woman, She Is Your Wife", instead of me! But what really saved me was that I was a writer in the stable of Gamble & Huff. I had gotten on board with them as a writer, so anything I wrote outside of their company was covered by them. When I signed my contract with Prelude and they tried to take the publishing as well as the writers, I immediately went to Mr. Gamble and he won my song back for me. But he had to go to court to get the song back. It was a terrible thing because I knew I had written it. When I went to make the deal at Prelude they said "oh, you don't have to let Mr. Gamble know about this" and I said "I'm going to tell him" and I did.  I was under contract with Gamble & Huff and during the thirty-three years I have been in the industry I have tried to avoid anything unethical. You know, going under the table, making deals. That's the reason why I am without a deal today because I'm not gonna do anything just for the sake of making records or for the sake of being in the record industry. I would rather wait for someone I can trust. Someone that is willing to make above-the-table deals.

I read that you ran into severe financial troubles in the late seventies, after leaving Prelude Records and from what I understand, your friend, the late, great, Philly-Soul icon Norman Harris supported you financially. But in 1980, K.C. from the Sunshine Band and a songstress named Teri DeSario re-recorded "Yes, I'm Ready"and that brought you out of the slump. That was a huge hit for K.C. It went to #2 on the Pop chart in the U.S., held that position for two weeks and landed at #20 R&B and over one million copies! Did you know about it in advance, that K.C. was doing a cover of your very first hit record?

-No! That was a big surprise to me. In fact, I first heard of it when I was watching the Mike Douglas show. When I saw Mike Douglas present the song on TV,  I didn't even know K.C. had re-recorded my song! I was just so shocked! I had no idea it was gonna do so well! The thing about my financial status is absolutely true. Norman supported me, that's how it was. Norman passed in 1987 and I miss him terribly. We were friends since we were children. We grew up together. He used to travel with me when I first went on the road in 1965. I took him out on the road to be my music conductor. I only had one song, "Yes, I'm Ready", so I would do covers of other people's songs. But he and I traveled throughout the south on many, many tours.  Until 1980, it was awfully difficult for me.  After my deal with Prelude had ended, there really weren't any places for me to go to, until KC and Teri DeSario came with "Yes, I'm Ready". But since then, I have not been financially broke. I've been doing very well.

I'm relieved to hear that. What a friend you had in Norman..

-Yes, Norman was wonderful, Maria. You will see his name on a lot of my recordings. As I said, he died much too young. He was thirty-nine years old. He had a massive heart attack and it seems that Philadelphia has lost so many of its great people. I'm really the last and only female vocalist that wrote and sang her own songs left in the Philadelphia area. In Philadelphia, there was no other songwriter black or white, that did what I did. Linda Creed, who wrote with Thom Bell, she did not sing, she only wrote songs. And Patti LaBelle does not always write and sing her songs. If she does, she hasn't written as many as I have.

How about the other prominent Philadelphia musicians that played on your records? Is Earl Young deceased?

-No, Earl is living, I just saw Earl. But Norman is dead and Ronnie Baker is dead. They were part of M.F.S.B. I never had brothers and I just considered these guys family. Ronnie died, probably something like six years ago. He had cancer of the brain. He wasn't that old, he was just in his early fifties. Norman, of course, was younger, he was just 39 when he died. Norman was born with a bad heart, he always had heart problems. One night, he had a massive, massive heart attack. In fact, he died on his daughter's birthday. I'll never forget it. It was the twenty-third of March 1987 and I got a phone call that Norman had died. Maria, I was devastated because Norman had known me since I was twelve years old. Norman knew me before I met Weldon McDougal and Jimmy Bishop. He and I used to do talent shows together around the neighborhood. My grandparents lived in the same part of the city as Norman's family, which is west of Philadelphia, so when I would go to visit my grandparents, I would get a chance to see Norman. We were just kids. We had no idea that one day we would become who we became. When we became famous, we would sit back, talk and laugh about it. I'd say "Norman did you ever think that we'd be famous and that people all over the world would know our names?" And Norman, he had a nickname for me, which Jimmy Bishop gave me. He used to call me "Babs". So Norman said "Babs, I was going to get married, have kids, I never dreamed of this. I was just messing around with the guitar". I look at the great things he did outside of the things he did with me; he was also a producer of the Trammps, with "Disco Inferno", which was a huge success, he produced a group called First Choice.. You know, he did numerous wonderful things..

Right! First Choice were on Gold Mind,  Norman's Salsoul-distributed label..

-Yes! He called me up and said "I've got an office". I said "get out of here, where is it?". It was in what we call the downtown section of Philadelphia. Norman said "I want you to come down and see it". So I got dressed, I went downtown and came to his office. Now, Norman was a short, little person. He was not a big person in stature. He was very small and I said "look at you, with your little, small self, sitting behind this big desk. I guess you think you're a big deal, don't you?". He said "of course I'm a big deal. Aren't you my friend? Aren't we family?". I said "Norman, I love you as I love any member of my family and I wish you the greatest success with your label."

How did Gold Mind do? Was it as successful as you had hoped?

-It didn't do that well. I don't know how many hits he had on it, but I do know that Mr. Gamble helped to get Norman in business with the label. Ken Cayre over at Salsoul records and Norman became friends and Ken arranged for Salsoul to distribute Gold Mind. Ken decided to invest in Norman, which was a great thing. I saw Ken Cayre about, say three years ago, when they honored Baker, Harris and Young. Here in Philadelphia, there is a big organization, I can't think of the name right now, but they honor a lot of Philly people. They put your name in a star on the street, same as they do in Hollywood. So they put Baker, Harris and Young's names downtown and I went to the event for them. Norman's family was there, his son was there, a lot of his brothers and sisters were there. Earl Young was there. Of course Ronnie Baker had died as well, but his family and his children were there. I cried that night because I went all the way back to when we were children. I thought "My God, Norman, wherever you are, I told you that you would be great. And I felt so blessed to be able to be there and be a part of it, watching them honor Norman.

Baker-Harris-Young's production company worked with so many great artists.. Not only Earl Young's The Trammps and First Choice, but Loleatta Holloway, the Temptations, Double Exposure.. They even made a record in their own name which I really like.

-Baker-Harris-Young. I remember when Norman called me about that too. He said "I'm gonna form this production company called Baker-Harris-Young". I was always teasing him so I said "What kinda name  is that? It sounds like a lawyer's office. What are you trying to be? A lawyer?" (laughs).  Norman said "no, I'm a musician". I said "Norman, I know what you are. Why are you calling it Baker-Harris-Young?" Norman said "doesn't it sound real important?" and I replied "you'll never be important". I would always kid with him like that. I loved him, he was like the brother I never had. That's why when I ran into financial troubles, I knew I could go to him. I knew that whatever I needed, he would take care of me. When he died, it really, really, devastated me terribly. I listen to Norman and myself on record sometime and I say "God, Norman.. You left too soon." Those things are not in our hands. I appreciate God giving Norman to me for a little while. We had a really good life together.

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